How do I handle my ex and his wf alienating our daughter?

[butterflymackey]

Wow it's been awhile since I've posted. I miss you guys!

I am NCM. I live in a NE child lives in AZ. She is 9. My situation sounds very similar to ksmom's. Ex is married to ex best friend. My ex works and SM stays home with their kid, her kid from prev relationship and my daughter. He has had custody for 4 years now. I get everyother xmas and spring break and 6wks in summer. Ex and I dont get a long and he leaves me to deal with SM. Even when I have refused to deal with her, I still end up having to deal with her.
She's mentally alienating my child and dad doesnt care.

These are some things she has admittingly told our daughter:

1. Your mom is the one that doesnt want to be friends with me. I have no problem with her.

2. Your mom is always yelling at me and your dad, that's why we dont want to talk to her.

3. You cant go into your bedroom and talk to your mom because she likes to make you cry.

4. Your mom doesnt care about you or she would live in AZ.

5. You dont want to get fat like your mom do you?
 
6. I dont agree with the way your mom's family is, but if you want to be around those kind of people thats your choice.
 
7. If your mom really wanted to see you, she would come here to visit you.

8. Your mom always blames me for you not wanting to talk on the phone.
 
I could go on. The problem is that my daughter is really buying into this crap!  So I look like the mean parent. I cant have a conversation without her asking me questions like: why I dont like her SM, why do I always yell at her SM and dad and why I always blame everything on her SM.  Then I spend our whole conversation trying to defend myself. I have told her that grownup things are none of her concern and that she will understand more when she is older. Then she gets loud and rude with me demanding that I answer her question or she wont speak to me at all.

I have tried to get her father to intervene, that's a joke. He actually told me "I cant help it if our daughter doesnt like you. What am I supposed to do about it?"

In addition, she wont recognize my family anymore. She thinks they are all bad. I have a sister, aunt and grandfather that live there. She is not allowed to speak to them on the phone or see them in person. Other family tries to call they wont answer. They use the excuse that they are not home, but they have admitted they have caller ID. She wont except gifts from me or my family either. She was here for xmas and didnt want to take home any of her gifts.

In the past when I have sent her things; instead of encouraging her to be greatful and show gratitude, they encourage her that if she doesnt want it she can throw it away. It almost seems like shes proud to tell us when she throws things away. So it has gotten to the point that no one sends her anything. Then we are all bad people for not sending her anything.

On her birthday this last Nov, I talked to her dad and said "Since her b-day falls on a day that is not our normal phone call day, I wanted to arrange a time that is convenient for you so I can at least wish her a Happy B-day." He told me a time that would be ok. Then about 30 mins before I was going to call I get a phone call from my daughter. "I was just calling so you could say Happy B-day and get it over with." Then SM gets on the phone "I had her call you because we are leaving earlier than I thought." I was crushed. My daughter now thinks she had to call me on her b-day! SM did that on purpose!!!!! Then I look like I am being ungreatful because SM is trying her best to keep an open line and I just dont appreciate it. Yeah right! We know that wasnt her motive.

She has also told my daughter she wanted to adopt her and called me at work to ask me if I would give up rights!!! Then my daughter tried talking me into it!!! 4 words: OVER MY DEAD BODY!!

I consider this abuse. My child actually watches her carbs because she doesnt want to get fat like me. So now we have to worry about her getting an eating disorder too.
 
I have talked to BF about putting her in couseling. He refuses. Says it cost too much. I say ins is supposed to cover some cost and the extra cost is split between us. Our child's mental health is worth any cost. He says a counselor told him that she doesnt have any problems but couldnt tell me what the name of the counselor was or when she saw him.

What am I going to do? I cant afford an attorney. The case is jurisdicted in AZ. My husband and I have talked about moving there when I get my degree in about 3 years, but until then it's not possible. BTW... When we separated I had her here with me. I am stupid and trusted him, so I sent her to visit with nothing in writing and once he had her back in AZ they ordered that I couldnt take her out of the state again. It just went from there and he got custody. I love my kid. I understand the distance makes it hard, but I was a child of the same situation. My mom lived AZ my dad NE. MY WHOLE LIFE. They never did this to me. Oh yeah she acts like an angel when she is here. But she is always concerned with missing a phone call from them. We will actually stop what we are doing and let her use the cell phone to call, otherwise she worries the whole time.  

Any suggestion??? Please help!!x(

[olanna]

certainly unhealthy and needs to be addressed. You can't stop them from saying those things, but you sure can point out how unhealthy those things are.

Don't join them in the Passing...she will get it or she won't...

[I cry_ in_the_dark]

I'm not going to even touch the alienation issues. Been there done that, have the T-shirt  :-(

But as for gifts...buy her savings bonds! They are sold here with a gift card. Have the bonds sent to your own address, and if you like, put your name on them as a secondary holder. Keep them for her in the envelope they come in, showing the postmark date.

She may not appreciate it now, but when the time comes...and yes, the time will come...she'll know and understand  ;-)

[EyeforKids]

Wonderful idea!

[Sherry1]

of what the sacrifice is, and if necessary start over with your plans.  A 9yo does not have the reasoning skills necessary to think over two people that are telling her these kinds of things.  I went through a similar situation with my son, but he was 14, a much different age.  I was able to steer around the BS that my ex and his wife were telling him.  

[butterflymackey]

That is a really great idea. I will talk to my bank about buying some.
I am sorry you have had to deal with the same issues. It really sucks.
It makes you just want to give up, but then I stop and think that I am not the victim here my child is. Thanks.

[butterflymackey]

I agree with you, but it is way easier said than done. I have tapped out my resources as far as borrowing money from relatives, that I havent paid back. I am so in debt from the divorce. My ex has sued me for not being able to pay off bills that where decreed to me. We live paycheck to paycheck as it is. There is no way for me to move right now. I guess the advice I am looking for right now is, can I petition the court to force him to take her to counseling? Does anyone know someone who has gone through this and gained custody back soley based on this kind of abuse? Do I have any legal options without having to hire an attorney?

Thank you for the advise. I am sorry about your son. I hope things are going better for you now.

[BlendedFamily]

I empathize with your situation.  I know that living paycheck to paycheck is tough and attorney's are very expensive.  I am new to the board and have found some very insightful information that is going to help me in my case.

Regarding your situation.... I believe every state has a handful of attorney's that will give a free consultation.  Call around and get a consultation and then absorb e'thing the attorney tells you then you can research to try to stop the alienation Pro Se.

I know here in FL there are alot of Paralegal services that are about 1/4 of the cost of attorney's that can aid you in the paperwork mess.  Just a thought... hope it helps.

[butterflymackey]

Thanks for the suggestion. Good luck on your case, I would give my right pinky to have known about this site before my case. It's ALOT harder to do things once a court order is set down.

[NoNicky]

We've all been there to some degree or another.  I still say that the high road is the best road though.  What I mean by this is...

"I can not account for what your father or stepmother may have said to you.  I did not hear it and can not comment on it.  I can tell you, that I love you, that the fact that your father and I are divorced has nothing to do with you, that when you are older you will figure out things on your own and be able to make clearer judgements, that I am your mother, I will always be your mother and no one can ever change that, etc"  

Those are just some examples of the sort of things I have said to my children over the years.  The older they get the more they "get it".  They now realize that in all the years they have not heard me bad-mouth their father, their stepmother, or the family of either.  They have heard me promote their fathers' remarriage as a positive thing for them (when in my heart I did not feel it and still don't).  They have heard the opposite from their father and their step-mother.  When they were younger (and the youngest still) believes some of their line of crap.  But as they have matured they have seen the truth.  I kind of use the "give them enough rope" strategy.  It is VERY long, and VERY hard to do.  But my oldest has been living with me for some years now and even before he turned 18 told his dad he would not ever live with him again because of his ways and actions towards me.  My daughter may still live there but now there are days she will call just to say "I love you mommy".  Out of a 13 yr old I think that is tremendous.  Even my youngest at only 8 comments on the fact that my husband and I treat all of them, my children and his, equally and fairly, while the same is not done in his father's home.  

You might explain to your daughter that you are educating yourself so that you can be a better parent to her and a positive influence and that when circumstances permit you will try to move closer to her.  (don't make a promise you might not be able to keep)  I know your daughter will not "hear" any of this at first.  Keep saying it.  Calmly, lovingly and often.  We deal with extreme PAS with my ss.  It's hurtful but never respond with hurt.  

I have responded to "you're not my mother!" with, "No, I am not your mother, I have never claimed to be your mother.  You have a mother.  You don't need me to take her place.  However, I am your father's wife and I am his helpmate.  That means helping him care for you as well.  Loving you as much as I do the children I gave birth to.  There is no reason that your mother, your father and I can't all love you and you can't love all of us."  I've also heard "You're fat"  I've explained that I am as I am supposed to be and that the world would be boring if we all looked alike.  

Best of luck to you.

NoNicky
For God has not given a spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind.  1 Peter 1:6

[butterflymackey]

You are amazing! Thank you for your inspiring words. You actually brought tears to my eyes. It's so nice to get reassurance from others in similar situations. It's just unfortunate that it has to be this way.

I keep hoping and praying that she will understand some day. I always talk about the good times we have had. I tell her stories about how her father and I used to be when we were in love, and some of the nice things he did for us. I never say"but now". I cant say I have NEVER said anything bad about SM but I try like heck and its not intentional.
 
One of her favorite things to do when she is here is for me to lay with her at night before she falls asleep, cuddled up telling her funny stories about when she was a baby. THATS one thing dad and stepmom dont have.

She is actually coming to visit me next month for Spring break. I am going to take off 4 days from work to spend with just the 2 of us. I usually try to use the small amount of time she is here to catch up and spoil her rotten. This time we are just going to relax and spend time together.

What do you think of this?: I have about a gazillion old pictures of everyone that I have never put into a scrap book. I only hold on to some of them for her. They are all in her room in boxes because she loves to reminise when she visits. Do you think it would be a good idea for the 2 of us to put together a scrapbook with those pictures? I thought maybe we could make it "our thing". I could tell her some stories about them while we put them in some order.

I'm so glad to hear your kids are coming around. I wish you all the best. Keep in touch. I would love to keep hearing good news like that. I will pray for the younger ones and for you too. You sound like a great mom.

[ksmomof2girls]

eom

[NoNicky]

First off I am so happy and excited for you.

I think the scrap book is an excellent idea!  However I'd like to add a suggestion that we did for our kids and even our niece and nephew who were hidden from the family for 5 years...

Make 2 scrapbooks.  Make a main one that will stay with you at your house for when she is there but make a small photo album or scrapbook she can take with her.  Make sure to include pictures of her grandparents, cousins, etc.  This will help her keep the connection even when she isn't with you.  Use your computer to scan the pics if you need to make copies.  For a "cheaper" more lasting paper get card stock.  It prints pics fairly well, is durable yet is still no big deal if something happens to them.

Keep your chin up.

NoNicky
For God has not given a spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind.  1 Peter 1:6

[butterflymackey]

I cant wait until she gets here! I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.

[butterflymackey]

Wow it's been awhile since I've posted. I miss you guys!

I am NCM. I live in a NE child lives in AZ. She is 9. My situation sounds very similar to ksmom's. Ex is married to ex best friend. My ex works and SM stays home with their kid, her kid from prev relationship and my daughter. He has had custody for 4 years now. I get everyother xmas and spring break and 6wks in summer. Ex and I dont get a long and he leaves me to deal with SM. Even when I have refused to deal with her, I still end up having to deal with her.
She's mentally alienating my child and dad doesnt care.

These are some things she has admittingly told our daughter:

1. Your mom is the one that doesnt want to be friends with me. I have no problem with her.

2. Your mom is always yelling at me and your dad, that's why we dont want to talk to her.

3. You cant go into your bedroom and talk to your mom because she likes to make you cry.

4. Your mom doesnt care about you or she would live in AZ.

5. You dont want to get fat like your mom do you?
 
6. I dont agree with the way your mom's family is, but if you want to be around those kind of people thats your choice.
 
7. If your mom really wanted to see you, she would come here to visit you.

8. Your mom always blames me for you not wanting to talk on the phone.
 
I could go on. The problem is that my daughter is really buying into this crap!  So I look like the mean parent. I cant have a conversation without her asking me questions like: why I dont like her SM, why do I always yell at her SM and dad and why I always blame everything on her SM.  Then I spend our whole conversation trying to defend myself. I have told her that grownup things are none of her concern and that she will understand more when she is older. Then she gets loud and rude with me demanding that I answer her question or she wont speak to me at all.

I have tried to get her father to intervene, that's a joke. He actually told me "I cant help it if our daughter doesnt like you. What am I supposed to do about it?"

In addition, she wont recognize my family anymore. She thinks they are all bad. I have a sister, aunt and grandfather that live there. She is not allowed to speak to them on the phone or see them in person. Other family tries to call they wont answer. They use the excuse that they are not home, but they have admitted they have caller ID. She wont except gifts from me or my family either. She was here for xmas and didnt want to take home any of her gifts.

In the past when I have sent her things; instead of encouraging her to be greatful and show gratitude, they encourage her that if she doesnt want it she can throw it away. It almost seems like shes proud to tell us when she throws things away. So it has gotten to the point that no one sends her anything. Then we are all bad people for not sending her anything.

On her birthday this last Nov, I talked to her dad and said "Since her b-day falls on a day that is not our normal phone call day, I wanted to arrange a time that is convenient for you so I can at least wish her a Happy B-day." He told me a time that would be ok. Then about 30 mins before I was going to call I get a phone call from my daughter. "I was just calling so you could say Happy B-day and get it over with." Then SM gets on the phone "I had her call you because we are leaving earlier than I thought." I was crushed. My daughter now thinks she had to call me on her b-day! SM did that on purpose!!!!! Then I look like I am being ungreatful because SM is trying her best to keep an open line and I just dont appreciate it. Yeah right! We know that wasnt her motive.

She has also told my daughter she wanted to adopt her and called me at work to ask me if I would give up rights!!! Then my daughter tried talking me into it!!! 4 words: OVER MY DEAD BODY!!

I consider this abuse. My child actually watches her carbs because she doesnt want to get fat like me. So now we have to worry about her getting an eating disorder too.
 
I have talked to BF about putting her in couseling. He refuses. Says it cost too much. I say ins is supposed to cover some cost and the extra cost is split between us. Our child's mental health is worth any cost. He says a counselor told him that she doesnt have any problems but couldnt tell me what the name of the counselor was or when she saw him.

What am I going to do? I cant afford an attorney. The case is jurisdicted in AZ. My husband and I have talked about moving there when I get my degree in about 3 years, but until then it's not possible. BTW... When we separated I had her here with me. I am stupid and trusted him, so I sent her to visit with nothing in writing and once he had her back in AZ they ordered that I couldnt take her out of the state again. It just went from there and he got custody. I love my kid. I understand the distance makes it hard, but I was a child of the same situation. My mom lived AZ my dad NE. MY WHOLE LIFE. They never did this to me. Oh yeah she acts like an angel when she is here. But she is always concerned with missing a phone call from them. We will actually stop what we are doing and let her use the cell phone to call, otherwise she worries the whole time.  

Any suggestion??? Please help!!x(

[olanna]

certainly unhealthy and needs to be addressed. You can't stop them from saying those things, but you sure can point out how unhealthy those things are.

Don't join them in the Passing...she will get it or she won't...

[I cry_ in_the_dark]

I'm not going to even touch the alienation issues. Been there done that, have the T-shirt  :-(

But as for gifts...buy her savings bonds! They are sold here with a gift card. Have the bonds sent to your own address, and if you like, put your name on them as a secondary holder. Keep them for her in the envelope they come in, showing the postmark date.

She may not appreciate it now, but when the time comes...and yes, the time will come...she'll know and understand  ;-)

[EyeforKids]

Wonderful idea!

[Sherry1]

of what the sacrifice is, and if necessary start over with your plans.  A 9yo does not have the reasoning skills necessary to think over two people that are telling her these kinds of things.  I went through a similar situation with my son, but he was 14, a much different age.  I was able to steer around the BS that my ex and his wife were telling him.  

[butterflymackey]

That is a really great idea. I will talk to my bank about buying some.
I am sorry you have had to deal with the same issues. It really sucks.
It makes you just want to give up, but then I stop and think that I am not the victim here my child is. Thanks.

[butterflymackey]

I agree with you, but it is way easier said than done. I have tapped out my resources as far as borrowing money from relatives, that I havent paid back. I am so in debt from the divorce. My ex has sued me for not being able to pay off bills that where decreed to me. We live paycheck to paycheck as it is. There is no way for me to move right now. I guess the advice I am looking for right now is, can I petition the court to force him to take her to counseling? Does anyone know someone who has gone through this and gained custody back soley based on this kind of abuse? Do I have any legal options without having to hire an attorney?

Thank you for the advise. I am sorry about your son. I hope things are going better for you now.

[BlendedFamily]

I empathize with your situation.  I know that living paycheck to paycheck is tough and attorney's are very expensive.  I am new to the board and have found some very insightful information that is going to help me in my case.

Regarding your situation.... I believe every state has a handful of attorney's that will give a free consultation.  Call around and get a consultation and then absorb e'thing the attorney tells you then you can research to try to stop the alienation Pro Se.

I know here in FL there are alot of Paralegal services that are about 1/4 of the cost of attorney's that can aid you in the paperwork mess.  Just a thought... hope it helps.

[butterflymackey]

Thanks for the suggestion. Good luck on your case, I would give my right pinky to have known about this site before my case. It's ALOT harder to do things once a court order is set down.

[NoNicky]

We've all been there to some degree or another.  I still say that the high road is the best road though.  What I mean by this is...

"I can not account for what your father or stepmother may have said to you.  I did not hear it and can not comment on it.  I can tell you, that I love you, that the fact that your father and I are divorced has nothing to do with you, that when you are older you will figure out things on your own and be able to make clearer judgements, that I am your mother, I will always be your mother and no one can ever change that, etc"  

Those are just some examples of the sort of things I have said to my children over the years.  The older they get the more they "get it".  They now realize that in all the years they have not heard me bad-mouth their father, their stepmother, or the family of either.  They have heard me promote their fathers' remarriage as a positive thing for them (when in my heart I did not feel it and still don't).  They have heard the opposite from their father and their step-mother.  When they were younger (and the youngest still) believes some of their line of crap.  But as they have matured they have seen the truth.  I kind of use the "give them enough rope" strategy.  It is VERY long, and VERY hard to do.  But my oldest has been living with me for some years now and even before he turned 18 told his dad he would not ever live with him again because of his ways and actions towards me.  My daughter may still live there but now there are days she will call just to say "I love you mommy".  Out of a 13 yr old I think that is tremendous.  Even my youngest at only 8 comments on the fact that my husband and I treat all of them, my children and his, equally and fairly, while the same is not done in his father's home.  

You might explain to your daughter that you are educating yourself so that you can be a better parent to her and a positive influence and that when circumstances permit you will try to move closer to her.  (don't make a promise you might not be able to keep)  I know your daughter will not "hear" any of this at first.  Keep saying it.  Calmly, lovingly and often.  We deal with extreme PAS with my ss.  It's hurtful but never respond with hurt.  

I have responded to "you're not my mother!" with, "No, I am not your mother, I have never claimed to be your mother.  You have a mother.  You don't need me to take her place.  However, I am your father's wife and I am his helpmate.  That means helping him care for you as well.  Loving you as much as I do the children I gave birth to.  There is no reason that your mother, your father and I can't all love you and you can't love all of us."  I've also heard "You're fat"  I've explained that I am as I am supposed to be and that the world would be boring if we all looked alike.  

Best of luck to you.

NoNicky
For God has not given a spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind.  1 Peter 1:6

[butterflymackey]

You are amazing! Thank you for your inspiring words. You actually brought tears to my eyes. It's so nice to get reassurance from others in similar situations. It's just unfortunate that it has to be this way.

I keep hoping and praying that she will understand some day. I always talk about the good times we have had. I tell her stories about how her father and I used to be when we were in love, and some of the nice things he did for us. I never say"but now". I cant say I have NEVER said anything bad about SM but I try like heck and its not intentional.
 
One of her favorite things to do when she is here is for me to lay with her at night before she falls asleep, cuddled up telling her funny stories about when she was a baby. THATS one thing dad and stepmom dont have.

She is actually coming to visit me next month for Spring break. I am going to take off 4 days from work to spend with just the 2 of us. I usually try to use the small amount of time she is here to catch up and spoil her rotten. This time we are just going to relax and spend time together.

What do you think of this?: I have about a gazillion old pictures of everyone that I have never put into a scrap book. I only hold on to some of them for her. They are all in her room in boxes because she loves to reminise when she visits. Do you think it would be a good idea for the 2 of us to put together a scrapbook with those pictures? I thought maybe we could make it "our thing". I could tell her some stories about them while we put them in some order.

I'm so glad to hear your kids are coming around. I wish you all the best. Keep in touch. I would love to keep hearing good news like that. I will pray for the younger ones and for you too. You sound like a great mom.

[ksmomof2girls]

eom

[NoNicky]

First off I am so happy and excited for you.

I think the scrap book is an excellent idea!  However I'd like to add a suggestion that we did for our kids and even our niece and nephew who were hidden from the family for 5 years...

Make 2 scrapbooks.  Make a main one that will stay with you at your house for when she is there but make a small photo album or scrapbook she can take with her.  Make sure to include pictures of her grandparents, cousins, etc.  This will help her keep the connection even when she isn't with you.  Use your computer to scan the pics if you need to make copies.  For a "cheaper" more lasting paper get card stock.  It prints pics fairly well, is durable yet is still no big deal if something happens to them.

Keep your chin up.

NoNicky
For God has not given a spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind.  1 Peter 1:6

[butterflymackey]

I cant wait until she gets here! I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.